Electrification of mobile machines

00:00:00: Hello everybody and welcome to a new episode of our tech podcast from Bosch Rex Road.

00:00:09: My name is Robert Weber.

00:00:11: Today we leave the factory for a few episodes and we talk about electrification of mobile

00:00:17: machines at Bosch.

00:00:19: At Bosch it is called electrification of highway.

00:00:24: From the factory a new territory for me so I need some help and I'm pleased that we

00:00:31: were able to win an expert from Bosch Rex Road.

00:00:35: Welcome Dr. Stefan Mutschler.

00:00:37: Hello Stefan.

00:00:38: Hello Robert.

00:00:39: Today you will give us an overview of the market and the technology a bit but before

00:00:44: we start please introduce yourself briefly to the listeners.

00:00:48: My name is Stefan Mutschler.

00:00:50: Dr. Stefan Mutschler.

00:00:51: Yes, Dr. Stefan Mutschler.

00:00:52: I'm born in Hannover in the north of Germany.

00:00:55: Lower Saxonia.

00:00:56: Right, exactly.

00:00:57: Where I also went to the university.

00:01:00: Oh yes, right.

00:01:01: No, you're a doctor without universities, no possible I think or you buy it.

00:01:06: I think that's not possible right.

00:01:08: So I studied mechanical engineering there.

00:01:11: For one year I was also in Wisconsin.

00:01:13: In Wisconsin, okay.

00:01:14: USA.

00:01:15: During my studies, exactly.

00:01:16: Where in Wisconsin?

00:01:17: In Madison.

00:01:18: In Madison, okay.

00:01:20: And after my studies I did my PhD in Bondschreich also in north of Germany.

00:01:27: And now you're in the south of Germany.

00:01:28: Now I'm in the south.

00:01:29: And after my PhD I went to Bosch Rex Road.

00:01:33: Was working in the development of mostly propulsion systems for mobile machines for about 14 years.

00:01:41: And after that I switched over to the sales department and recently well about two years

00:01:47: ago.

00:01:48: I was in the office and I was working on the project.

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00:07:52: And now you want to introduce electric drives.

00:07:56: So for many of our customers,

00:07:58: it's the first step to go first to electronic solutions,

00:08:02: to learn how to work with software.

00:08:04: And then to do the next step,

00:08:06: to go in the direction of electrification.

00:08:08: And here we support a lot.

00:08:10: Okay. So your job is more supporting them?

00:08:14: Or it's 50/50 or whatever?

00:08:18: It depends always on the customer.

00:08:20: So we are directly supporting in the selection of the components,

00:08:24: as the first step,

00:08:26: based on our application knowledge that we have here.

00:08:28: So typically we know very well what the machine requires

00:08:32: and how two dimensions arrive.

00:08:34: Because you have this domain knowledge?

00:08:36: We have the, let's say, application knowledge.

00:08:38: Application knowledge.

00:08:40: We know how construction machines work.

00:08:42: We know the agricultural machines.

00:08:44: We know the forestry.

00:08:46: We know the municipal vehicles.

00:08:48: And with that machine knowledge,

00:08:50: we can help the customer a lot to select the right components.

00:08:52: And then we go in the direction that you mentioned.

00:08:56: The domain knowledge.

00:08:58: So bringing together the application knowledge

00:09:00: of the mobile machine

00:09:02: with the domain knowledge of the electric drives.

00:09:04: And combining this in the best solution for the customer.

00:09:08: Why is it not easy to replace a diesel engine

00:09:12: with an electric drive?

00:09:14: What is so difficult?

00:09:16: Maybe this would be the starting point here.

00:09:18: Because let's say from our point of view,

00:09:20: it's not so difficult to replace the diesel engine with the electric drive.

00:09:24: But the step you have to do for this is to build up the knowledge.

00:09:28: So we talk here a lot of re-skilling of the people in the companies.

00:09:32: This is, let's say, a process we went through in the recent years

00:09:37: to train the people how to work with the electric drives.

00:09:41: What do you train? What should they learn?

00:09:44: Well, the first thing is to learn really about the components,

00:09:48: about their behavior, about how to select and how to dimension the components.

00:09:52: The next step is to go to the commissioning of the products.

00:09:57: So what do I have to do to make the products run?

00:10:00: How they interact?

00:10:02: How to build up the systems?

00:10:04: So there are a lot of topics.

00:10:06: And in the end, the question is,

00:10:08: when I now go to my machine

00:10:11: and I have installed all the products,

00:10:14: what do I have to do to make sure now the operation is safer?

00:10:19: Because we're talking here about, let's say, quite high voltage up to 800V.

00:10:24: So you must make sure that before you start the machine the first time,

00:10:28: you have checked it thoroughly to make sure that nobody can be harmed.

00:10:33: And we offer trainings to our customers.

00:10:36: So there are very basic trainings to learn about the principles

00:10:40: about electricity as a starting point.

00:10:41: point. The principles about electricity, right?

00:10:44: Yes, yes, yes, we offer this. Yeah.

00:10:46: Just as a starting point for pure mechanical engineers, let's say to have a

00:10:49: first introduction. And then we have, let's say, advanced trainings where we go

00:10:54: more into the products and do some, let's say, first parameterization and so on.

00:11:00: And then we will also very soon offer new trainings going into the direction of

00:11:04: machine commissioning. Okay.

00:11:06: So let's say we do all we can do to support the customers in the best

00:11:11: way to enable them to build electric machines with us.

00:11:14: I want to come back to my question.

00:11:16: Is it easy or is it difficult to change a diesel engine to electric drives?

00:11:22: Can you explain us the new architecture of a mobile machine using an electric

00:11:30: drive instead of a diesel engine?

00:11:33: Well, like you just said, how difficult is it?

00:11:35: So you can make it as simple as possible, but just in brackets, taking out

00:11:41: the diesel engine and replacing it by electric drive.

00:11:43: Of course, you have to take care of the cooling or the thermal management

00:11:48: overall here. You have to take care of the batteries or of the charging.

00:11:52: There are many, many topics coming with this task that seems to be quite simple.

00:11:57: You said it's very simple.

00:11:59: Yeah. Well, I didn't say it's very simple, but let's say it's the most

00:12:03: simple way to electrify, replace the diesel engine.

00:12:07: But maybe it is not the best way because there's, let's say, there can be quite

00:12:13: some advantages generated by directly replacing the drive motor, which is

00:12:19: typically a hydrostatic motor.

00:12:21: You can replace it directly with an electric drive for the propulsion.

00:12:25: You could think about the swing drive of an excavator where you can have

00:12:30: different concepts, keep it hydraulic, improve it to an, let's say, advanced

00:12:35: hydraulic system or go directly in the direction of an electric drive, also for

00:12:39: the swing drive. There are many things you can do if you go to electrification.

00:12:43: You have to look on every energy consumer on the machine and have to

00:12:48: consider, keep it conventional or make it electric.

00:12:52: So it's very complicated, I think it's more complicated than trucks or cars,

00:12:57: right? Well, typically, we got more function on board.

00:13:00: Typically, mobile machines are very, very complex, which makes them, from my point

00:13:06: of view, much more interesting than, let's say, automotive or truck applications.

00:13:11: What is the perception of Bosch Rex Road in this use case?

00:13:15: Are your customers a little bit afraid of your role in this new business?

00:13:20: Because now you are responsible for the hydraulic, for the drives.

00:13:25: And what is the role of the machine building company in the future?

00:13:29: So typically, most of our customers are very happy to get as much as possible.

00:13:35: So complete, in the best case, complete machine solutions out of one hand.

00:13:40: And getting such a solution from a company like Bosch Rex Road in

00:13:45: typical Bosch quality developed and produced according to Bosch standards,

00:13:50: that has, let's say, quite a high value for the customer.

00:13:54: You said other customers afraid?

00:13:56: Yeah.

00:13:57: I would say not at all.

00:13:59: But isn't that their main business?

00:14:01: What is their main focus with new machines?

00:14:04: The OEM, the machine manufacturer, is the expert for the application and for

00:14:09: the design of the machine.

00:14:10: And the most important topic for him is the functionality.

00:14:14: So to realize premium functionality for the application that he is serving,

00:14:20: also at the quality that the customer is expecting from him.

00:14:25: In the past, we saw that there was a lot of systems engineering as, let's say,

00:14:31: one major competence at the manufacturer.

00:14:35: Today, we see that this is moving more and more in the direction of function

00:14:43: being represented by the machine software.

00:14:46: This is a trend that we see.

00:14:48: It's coming more and more, let's say the big machine manufacturers are the

00:14:54: ones starting with this, say, process.

00:14:57: It is the big construction machine manufacturers.

00:15:00: It's the big agricultural machine manufacturers that are more and more

00:15:04: looking into software, focusing on the development of autonomous and or

00:15:09: assisted and autonomous machines.

00:15:12: So software becomes more and more the topic for the companies.

00:15:15: While systems engineering, so to combine the products in the right way, is

00:15:22: more and more supported by the suppliers.

00:15:24: When we will see a lot of electrified mobile machines in the moment, I do

00:15:31: not see a lot of these machines.

00:15:33: Do you have a horizon for me and for the listeners when we will see more machines?

00:15:40: You don't see them because you don't look for them.

00:15:43: So today we have already a huge fleet of forklift trucks, for example,

00:15:50: that are operated in the factories.

00:15:53: That's one example.

00:15:54: But this is not your business.

00:15:55: I think there is no sweet spot for Bosch Rexford in the forklift market.

00:15:58: This is not our business today.

00:16:01: Exactly.

00:16:02: Today.

00:16:02: Let's say like this, the application in general, of course, is important to us.

00:16:07: We're delivering a lot of hydraulic solutions into the forklift, also electronics,

00:16:13: controllers, sensors and so on.

00:16:15: So the forklift industry overall is important for us.

00:16:18: Typically the drive solutions, electric drive solutions we are talking about in

00:16:22: the forklift are in the range between 48 and let's say typically 96.

00:16:27: Well, yeah.

00:16:28: So this is a low volt applications and with the E-Lion portfolio, we are

00:16:33: focusing on high voltage.

00:16:34: So typically bigger machines.

00:16:37: Exactly.

00:16:38: And where are these bigger machines?

00:16:40: Where can see them?

00:16:41: So the bigger machines, as we said already, you see them today in mostly in the

00:16:46: underground mining, they are coming now in the next steps in the harbors.

00:16:50: We see them a lot in the material handling and step by step, you will see them

00:16:56: in the next years in many, many applications.

00:16:59: So it's a step by step market to enter the market today.

00:17:03: Most OEM are working on machine concepts.

00:17:07: Let's say for the machines, beyond five tons of weight from upwards, there's no

00:17:14: end to bring them into the market in the next, let's say three to seven years.

00:17:20: So I think that every major OEM today is working on machine concepts, on first

00:17:29: proof of concepts for the high voltage.

00:17:31: And you could already see them on many fairs and shows during the last years.

00:17:37: Most OEM machine manufacturers were already presenting electric machines.

00:17:43: But your team is not the team for the proof of concept, right?

00:17:46: Your team is a team for industrial grade.

00:17:49: Again, it's not so black and white.

00:17:51: So all those concept machines you could see on the fairs in the last years were

00:17:56: typically not completely done by the machine manufacturers themselves.

00:18:00: They did them together with system integrators, with partners who supported

00:18:05: them to build their first generation of proof of concept.

00:18:08: Since this was done by the partners, typically, the manufacturer

00:18:13: themselves didn't learn as much as you would think.

00:18:15: That's interesting.

00:18:16: So today we are very often back to the start where the manufacturers now come to us.

00:18:23: They said, yes, we have done this first proof of concept, but now we want to do it

00:18:28: more serious.

00:18:29: We want to develop towards serious production.

00:18:31: Let us know what we can do together.

00:18:33: And for us, it's very important to work, let's say, directly with our customers.

00:18:41: So there are many of our competitors who prefer to do, let's say, their complete

00:18:47: business through partners and have no direct contact to the machine manufacturer.

00:18:52: This is a big difference versus, let's say, our way of doing the business.

00:18:57: We typically want to work in a partnership together with our customer.

00:19:02: So we're developing the machine concepts together with respect to the drive

00:19:06: solution, of course, with respect to the software, with respect to the functional

00:19:10: safety.

00:19:11: We are supporting all those processes that are needed in the end to bring a machine

00:19:16: to serious production and then also to be a reliable supplier.

00:19:22: I think that's a very important topic, right?

00:19:25: To be a reliable partner, to be a partner that can deliver industrial

00:19:30: great solutions, right?

00:19:31: Yes, absolutely.

00:19:32: And I mean, this is something that became more and more important during the recent

00:19:37: years with all the logistics issues.

00:19:40: Supply chain, supply chain, exactly here.

00:19:42: It became quite visible that it is, let's say, helpful to work with a, let's say,

00:19:47: well, positioned strong company like Bosch or Bosch Rexord in the end.

00:19:51: Thank you very much, Stefan.

00:19:52: Please give us a short outlook to the next episode.

00:19:56: We want to talk about different topics.

00:19:58: Can you point out some topics?

00:20:00: Of course.

00:20:01: While today, Robert, this was, let's say, more or less an introduction to the topic

00:20:05: to hear something about the market, what's going on and so on.

00:20:09: We want to go deeper into technology in the next episodes.

00:20:13: So of course we will talk about electric drives for mobile machines in general.

00:20:18: We will talk about charging technology, onboard charges, charging standards to

00:20:24: give some, let's say, insight into this topic.

00:20:28: What we want to talk about is also a high voltage infrastructure inside the vehicle.

00:20:34: So how to do the connections, how to do the cabling, which, which components

00:20:38: do I need to make the machine safe and so on?

00:20:41: And talking about safety, yeah, this exactly, this will be also one topic.

00:20:46: So I think that's very important.

00:20:47: We will, we will also talk about functional safety with electric mobile machines.

00:20:51: Because that's totally new for your customers, right?

00:20:53: Functional safety is nothing new.

00:20:55: No, no, but safety with electric fight with electric drives.

00:20:59: Yes, exactly.

00:21:00: I mean, the electric drive is new.

00:21:02: Yeah.

00:21:02: And the functional safety is of course one big challenge that you have to take

00:21:06: care of when you build an electric machine.

00:21:09: Stefan, it was a pleasure.

00:21:10: Thank you very much for me as well.

00:21:11: Thank you, Robert.

00:21:12: Yeah.

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