How Bosch Rexroth Automates Tomorrow’s Semiconductor Fabs

00:00:04: Hello everybody and welcome to a new episode of Bosch Rexroths Tech Podcast.

00:00:08: My name is Robert Weber, my guest today is Jan Kazmaier.

00:00:11: Jan, welcome to the podcast!

00:00:14: Before

00:00:14: we start talking about Semicon and Electronics Industry, please introduce yourself briefly to the listeners.

00:00:21: Hello, my name is Jan Kazmaier and I am responsible at Bosch Rexroth for the global industry segment for Semicon and Electronics in terms of automation.

00:00:30: Can you share what Bosch Rexroth does actually do in this industry?

00:00:37: We have a huge portfolio in automation.

00:00:40: On the one hand, we have the whole portfolio for drives and controls. We also have the Linear Technology portfolio and for sure we have the Transportation System portfolio.

00:00:50: And with these different technologies we serve our customers, our customers are mainly the machine builders in the industry, the newest automation solutions to handle the wafers and to bring the chip to the end customer.

00:01:04: And also then for maybe your new mobile phone, yes:

00:01:10: Exactly!

00:01:11: Let's talk a little bit about the market and your customers.

00:01:14: What do they do especially? And what are their needs? Can you elaborate a little bit there?

00:01:20: So on the one hand, the market is a really increasing market.

00:01:26: So every year or every second year there's a new iPhone

00:01:28: so that means a new chip and that means the requirements and demands of chips are increasing.

00:01:35: It's predicted until 2030 that the chip production will double.

00:01:40: That means also the fab productions, so the locations where the chip is built, needs more capacity and also the fab needs more machines, which is good for us because we deliver to the machine.

00:01:51: Highly

00:01:51: automated there, right?

00:01:52: It's really highly-automated.

00:01:54: So when you go into a fab, there are mainly no people.

00:01:57: It's all automated.

00:01:58: It's 24/7 365 days per year.

00:02:02: So sometimes they're some people when do some maintenance but in general there are no people on the fab.

00:02:08: That means that the requirement of automation is very high.

00:02:12: We have one hand the chip transport with an overhead transportation systems where automatically, the chip is brought into the machine.

00:02:20: It's docked in a load part and then the wafer is handled out maybe with one of our wafer handling system into the vacuum chamber and in the vacuum chamber that chip is brought on the wafers.

00:02:34: And we with our portfolio or automation solutions, we ensure the precision of the wafer in the machine.

00:02:42: So that means on the one hand we can do it with standard components like standard axes, standard drives and standard motors but also what we do a lot for our customized solution because every machine is different.

00:02:56: The new seller system?

00:02:57: Yes, we sell our system.

00:02:59: We use our standard components and build out of them a complete mechatronic system.

00:03:05: For example, a wafer pin lift which has the task that the wafer is moved vertically in the process chamber to the right position with the right speed and in the right size due to machine.

00:03:15: So it's a customized project, right?

00:03:18: It's both, yeah, it depends on the process, it depends on the customer.

00:03:21: But what we see now in the industry that...

00:03:24: Do you

00:03:25: see an increased interest in customized projects? Yes,

00:03:28: because as I said, the demand is increasing.

00:03:31: That means fabs are built and it means time to market.

00:03:34: So that means machine should be brought into the fab in a very fast time.

00:03:38: So this whole bottleneck of all the fabs?

00:03:42: Not everything but its part of.

00:03:45: And we help our customers to increase the time to market by helping them to take over some automation tasks that they can focus on their core competence and that they're core

00:03:58: competence is to build the chip on a wafer.

00:04:00: And our Bosch Rexroth core competence is to automate the machine.

00:04:05: Just to be clear, you have them machine builders in the machine builders are your main customers, right?

00:04:11: They deliver their machine to the fabs.

00:04:14: Correct! And who builds now the shop floor there?

00:04:17: The machine builders together with the fabs

00:04:19: or are you also part of this?

00:04:21: So...

00:04:22: No. Okay.

00:04:22: No, so there is another part.

00:04:25: Okay. Another player?

00:04:26: There are some players in the world.

00:04:28: They act like a general contractor

00:04:30: So that means they design the fab and they also built the fab, yeah, together with the fab.

00:04:37: Yeah, so the fab...

00:04:38: They plan the material flow etc...

00:04:40: They build the construction and also they say: "Okay, which machine?"

00:04:46: The fab itself say I need this and that machine.

00:04:49: And then there are some specialized machine builders for every single process, they're some key players.

00:04:59: For example, the biggest one maybe for lithography is ASMR. In Eindhoven, yeah.

00:05:05: So when you go to the etching processes, go maybe for Applied Materials or LEM Research from the US. When it goes to the back end for wafer inspection testing,

00:05:15: you go to KLA.

00:05:17: So that means, there are a lot of machine builders.

00:05:21: In general, they concentrate on one process and at the end of day the fab decides which machines will be brought into the fab.

00:05:31: And the good thing is, we as an automation company are in every of these process steps.

00:05:38: So that means...

00:05:38: You have no gaps between the pros?

00:05:41: No, so that means, when you look at the value stream. We start at the wafer production where from silicon is built an ingot and the ingot is then cut into thin wafers.

00:05:53: This is the first step, wafer production.

00:05:55: And in the second, it's the front end, so in the front end you are on the fab.

00:06:00: The wafer goes into the fab and in the machine that chip is built on the wafer.

00:06:05: The third step is like a back end, so in the back end the first step is... the chip is cut out of the wafer, it's packaged and the ready chip goes then into electronic production where it goes either directly in a laptop or a PCB board.

00:06:23: Do we see an increasing complexity in this whole automation field in this industry?

00:06:29: Yes.

00:06:30: Also... Maybe I start with the complexity of the chips, then hand over to the automation because the chips are getting smaller and smaller.

00:06:39: This comes from the AI.

00:06:41: So that means, the chip is getting smaller.

00:06:43: The machine has to do more

00:06:45: to build this chip.

00:06:46: And also in terms of automation, that means for these new chips you also need new kinds of machines with new functionalities and therefore also the automation demand and requirement is increasing.

00:06:59: That means, higher precision smaller sizes, yeah, more speed in the automation

00:07:07: and this is that the trends we also see in the market and... So therefore this is also the input for our product development roadmap where we then also bring our new products into the market.

00:07:19: Let's talk a little bit about the clean room because this is crucial for the whole industry

00:07:23: I think. Yes.

00:07:24: Which role does automation play when it comes to clean rooms?

00:07:31: Is it more difficult to deliver products in the clean room or is it a standard job to do?

00:07:35: Can you explain a little bit there?

00:07:37: Yeah, for sure.

00:07:38: So, when we look at these four production steps I think the highest requirement for cleanroom

00:07:43: and so vacuum or high temperatures are also often a tasks,

00:07:47: it's in front end.

00:07:49: And for sure our products are certified in different ISO classes more often by the Fraunhofer Institute.

00:07:57: So this means, our components and solutions are clean-room ready.

00:08:00: So that means, we can solve these requirements at our customer, but mostly they're often not directly in the vacuum chamber.

00:08:07: Or for example, wafer pin lift is below the vacuum chamber so that means, only the chuck where the wafer lies on is directly in a process chamber.

00:08:16: Nevertheless there are lot of clean room ISO requirements.

00:08:20: It depends upon the process but with out huge portfolio and our experts we know how to solve them.

00:08:27: You already mentioned the wafer lift.

00:08:28: Can you share three, four automation use-cases for the industry?

00:08:35: So, one I've already explained is like a classical way of pin lift, which we have in huge numbers in the field right now.

00:08:42:

00:08:42: Is this a standard product?

00:08:44: This is not real standard because every customer has its different requirements.

00:08:50: So that means, it's a customized products but for the customer itself in this machine is standard, because once you are in the machine, yeah, you specked in. And due to the copy exact

00:09:03: you're not allowed to change anything without asking the customer.

00:09:07: It comes to a standard and also... That's good for you, right?

00:09:09: It's good for us, yeah.

00:09:10: So that means, if your one specked in at a customer, the machine is running ten to fifteen years and nothing will be changed

00:09:17: but also... Incoming! Already incoming, yeah.

00:09:21: Planned

00:09:22: incoming, that's what love.

00:09:23: But also the next difficulty is to come into this machine, you have to hit the inflection point.

00:09:31: So that means, if the customer builds a new machine you have to be at the customer. You have to know it!

00:09:37: If you are not there, you are not in the machine, then the window closes and you have to wait ten years.

00:09:41: No income...

00:09:43: That's why we also have an international sales team who cares about our customers being near the customer in terms of sales but also when in terms of engineering

00:09:54: we do together with our customers, this engineering for this kind of customized solutions, because it's like...

00:10:04: It always starts with a customized solution and becomes the standard solution.

00:10:08: It depends.

00:10:09: Yeah

00:10:10: so that good thing is we did For more than twenty-five years, we have a huge experience about this customized standard solutions.

00:10:20: Because at the end of today, a wafer lift is a waver lift but every customer has different requirements that can take from our experience and little modify to the requirement for new customers.

00:10:31: So that means for the customer, it's a standard product.

00:10:34: For us at the beginning is a customized product but like go with the flow!

00:10:39: Can you share two or three more use cases?

00:10:42: Yeah, so wafer lift person... Then we have also in front end lots of applications for wafer spin-lift which means the wafer not only goes up and down It also spins.

00:10:53: That is often used maybe for cleaning application.

00:10:56: You have liquid on the waver.

00:10:58: the wafer is cleaned.

00:11:00: This is required when you need a really high, high quality for the wafers often than very small AI chips.

00:11:09: Another topic is to do as I said single-waver cleaning.

00:11:13: but also there's an application for batch cleaning.

00:11:15: in the batch cleaning You have huge machines...

00:11:18: Is this

00:11:19: your third one?

00:11:20: Yes!

00:11:20: The batch cleaning with the huge machine is wet edge process.

00:11:23: so that means like a box with twenty five wafers and this box is brought down into a cleaning bath.

00:11:32: So, This the third one And I think the fourth one.

00:11:36: then we go more than from front end to back-end when it comes to wafer inspection.

00:11:42: so... The quality of the chip must be one hundred percent otherwise you lose alot money.

00:11:49: that means in the wafer production process there's lot testing and inspection process steps so that you can see really fast if there is a defect and If there's a defect, You can rearrange something.

00:12:02: That can use the wafer it until the end.

00:12:05: So for the waver inspection There's really really high precision this really really High acceleration.

00:12:11: but

00:12:11: this is nothing new right?

00:12:13: This is nothing in you.

00:12:14: But due to debt that the chips are getting smaller and smaller you need higher accuracy You need a higher quality, you need the higher speed.

00:12:22: That means also here we have mostly our standard products like guides and rails from Linear Technology who moves to stage where the wave is lying on.

00:12:33: but also huge demand is here in motion control.

00:12:37: so that means one hand there are mechanics But if there's limit then you can also control physical limits.

00:12:46: but you can also modify and control with the software.

00:12:49: So, this is then what's one of our unique selling points that we combine in the mechanics... ...with motion and software.

00:12:59: This makes Bosch Rexord so unique on a market where different technologies and we can combine them either.

00:13:07: We sell a standard standalone product from the catalog or, how often

00:13:13: does this happen?

00:13:14: From a catalogue.

00:13:15: I'm not allowed to tell that but it's okay.

00:13:16: It is good mixture.

00:13:17: yeah

00:13:18: so you mentioned controls right But there are even more right.

00:13:21: Yeah

00:13:23: for sure.

00:13:24: we have motion

00:13:25: linear.

00:13:27: We have three big business units and that's also one of our USPs we can provide to customers on the One-Hand.

00:13:34: We've got linear technology.

00:13:36: Can you share where Linear Technology plays a crucial role in the business?

00:13:40: In every process step, so you need it in every machine.

00:13:43: It depends upon your application.

00:13:44: On The One Hand only needs a guide or rail.

00:13:48: For other applications You'll need compact modules like linear access.

00:13:52: Also for pick-and-place applications, when it comes to the electronic industry you often use whole three axis linear system.

00:13:59: For example for pick and place applications.

00:14:01: so it depends on the application what do want?

00:14:04: but in general linear technology is in every process

00:14:07: okay.

00:14:07: well now four five six years back there was a saying Linear Technology is that?

00:14:12: So we don't need them anymore.

00:14:13: Do we see revival of linear technology?

00:14:15: no You needed in every industry not only Semicone.

00:14:20: If you want to move something from A-to B, You need a linear guide, linear rail and compact axis.

00:14:26: Otherwise... Okay!

00:14:27: You can also do it with a robot but It depends on the application.

00:14:32: There's advantages and disadvantages But when for example Wanted to move a wafer stage in every case?

00:14:39: You need some linear guides To move the wafer stages in XYZ directions.

00:14:43: So that is defect.

00:14:45: Are there different strategies by machine builders.

00:14:49: Yeah, so when you look back in the years most machine builders do everything by themselves.

00:14:55: Even the control of a machine.

00:14:58: they're doing it for themself.

00:14:59: They don't buy from their suppliers because its complex.

00:15:03: But we see that more and more demand is also to save time to focus on the core process Because chips are getting more complex And they search for partners who can help to increase the time-to-market.

00:15:19: We are an automation specialist, so that means we take over the automation task for a machine builder built with this whole wafer pin lift and deliver it at once ready to use.

00:15:32: It doesn't have to care about the automation positioning of the wafer —we do all these for our customer—and the customer concentrates on their core process.

00:15:42: how

00:15:43: There's an increase when it comes to the whole chip market, right?

00:15:46: Can you please share which markets are booming.

00:15:49: Is that only in Asia and US?

00:15:52: what about Europe chips act?

00:15:54: we want to produce more chips in Europe etc.

00:15:56: I think what's increasing?

00:15:59: When you look at the faps they're mostly in asia And then the u.s.

00:16:04: so in germany there also some faps.

00:16:06: yeah Also weed wash.

00:16:08: We have our own traps for our own chips like mems, sensorics or automotive chips.

00:16:15: So they are mostly bigger than the AI chips.

00:16:17: so you also need different requirements.

00:16:21: but I think when it comes to... Also to machine builders The market is strongly dominated with US companies But also Japanese.

00:16:31: They're very strong and what i personally saw was increasing demand of Chinese machine builders.

00:16:38: So this is several reasons due to global development and also politics, yeah so the China.

00:16:45: they have a semi-con in their five year plan?

00:16:48: You know once you're on your five years plan... They do everything about increase that!

00:16:53: This really supported by government as well.

00:16:56: I was there last year in April And it's been really impressed how far we are for machine building.

00:17:03: For sure part of this development, we have our own team in China.

00:17:08: So I strongly support them and go there twice a year.

00:17:11: so they will be here in Germany also In preparation for the semi-control Munich.

00:17:18: We meet as whole global team.

00:17:20: So we have huge focus team based on sales applications engineering product management also manufacturing.

00:17:28: We meet once a year, face-to-face.

00:17:29: this will be November in Eindhoven

00:17:32: next to Philips.

00:17:33: Also in Eindehoven we have strong team is focused on motion control.

00:17:39: so Eindhofen is lighthouse for the whole

00:17:43: city?

00:17:43: Yes yes so eindhoven it's very strong based one hand from the ASML ecosystem.

00:17:50: There are a lot of suppliers.

00:17:52: And the Philips ecosystem, right?

00:17:56: When you go to Eindhoven, you see everywhere...

00:17:58: Everybody worked for Philips or ASML and has now its own company!

00:18:03: But that's also good because everybody knows everybody.

00:18:06: This is strong community.

00:18:09: We can participate this I think in Germany there're some good clusters.

00:18:14: So one is like Silicon Saxony Dresden where we have our own fab.

00:18:19: Neuromorphic chips are also a topic there, right?

00:18:22: So new architectures for ships etc.

00:18:24: Yeah

00:18:25: and also in southern Germany And Australia is the strong ecosystem For machine builders.

00:18:34: What's on your tech agenda?

00:18:37: Can you please share give us an outlook Some new ideas some new concepts of industry

00:18:45: When we go.

00:18:46: See also how is the industry development.

00:18:49: I think one topic for sure, advanced packaging on the one hand.

00:18:52: so that means also faster machines higher automation but also a very strong demand on motion and software.

00:19:00: But also in other hands The front end And back-end.

00:19:03: they are coming closer together.

00:19:05: So this will bring up new technologies.

00:19:09: There was recently applied materials who bought a share of Basie More like the back end company.

00:19:16: applied is more like the front-end company and they're growing now stronger together.

00:19:19: So that means this also a development we see right?

00:19:23: Now yeah in terms of technical developments or from Bosch Rexford For sure.

00:19:30: We increase our mechatronic solutions, okay customer Yeah for sure.

00:19:35: other hand we have some something

00:19:38: new

00:19:38: some new systems.

00:19:39: The one isn't high speed transportation system which you all so can see November at the SPS show in Nuremberg.

00:19:45: It's called control flow HS.

00:19:47: this goes more like into the electronics production applications.

00:19:52: and on the other hand there is another system.

00:19:54: I think you also had Joachim Frangen in your class with the Flow-SIXD.

00:19:58: This is a levitating system and

00:20:00: this

00:20:01: really technology revolution because there's no friction, it's flying.

00:20:08: And for the semi-con industry if its vacuum or non-vacuum environment... ...this will help to disrupt the industry Because we can see about completely new machine designs inline transfer, wafer handling.

00:20:24: So that means you can put your wafer chambers on a line and then the middle have flow transportation system with the waveform, the end effector And this increases...can increase your throughput also helps to save space into fab due new machine designs for example We

00:20:42: will see totally new production lines New shop floor.

00:20:46: A new concept of shop floor Could

00:20:48: be.

00:20:49: This is now an evaluation.

00:20:51: We are working with some pilot customers, this

00:20:54: is a huge topic right?

00:20:55: The planar system...

00:20:57: There's some planar systems in the market.

00:20:59: I'm sure you know them but i never saw one which can go into vacuum.

00:21:04: What it so difficult with vacuum and planar System.

00:21:06: It about the heat.

00:21:08: Yeah its abut Some other stuff.

00:21:11: You don't want to going details.

00:21:13: I dont

00:21:13: wanna going details But there're some advantages we have of our system.

00:21:19: Jan, it was a pleasure.

00:21:20: Thank you very much for giving us some insights when it comes to semiconductor and electronic

00:21:31: industries.